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January 12, 2005

Comments

DF

And that at times it will be necessary to act with violence to defend your higher views, prevent others to impose on your their lesser views.
If you consider your children your equals, then you don't give orders, you discuss hours with them simple things, you tolerate socially non approved behaviour, and finally some 20 years later your children are much less than your equal at the time, because they have been deprived from fair education.

That was just another layer, on the line "get tough cousin, assume your violence".
Assume because of course my cousin (as many including myself) loves to be right, prove wrong, and is very engaged in propagating her beliefs. She does stand for some things.

But my feeling is that she pretends that she's not standing for them, that she treats other beliefs as equal and so on.

And i think, the mean green meme is even more perverse than Wilber describes.
It is egalitarian in discourses and many public acts, but it remains very elitist in others. So elitists that in fact it does not teach many things which are basics in its selection procedures. It's "OK watch TV, your choice" in discourse and teaching methods in highschool.
ANd then, sorry you have not read shakespeare and taken math in university selection. In so doing it is fueling anger from those who have been "encouraged" to follow the low paths.

Pluralism, multiculturalism, and egalitarianism, are not only "suicidal", they are also very unfair.
Those "inside" the elite, know it's just words and keep on working hard to achieve high states of consciousness.
Those "outide" are left falling into lower states, and sooner later resent it.

Annelene

My dear cousin,

Observe nature.

The oak tree does not act with violence, nor does it defend itself against the acorn. It lovingly protects it and nurtures it.

Also, one does not get upset at the flower because it does not talk.

DF

And the lion is not violent while chasing the buffalos, and I bet children got upset at flowers because they do not talk. (But what was the point there, are you saying, it is not in your nature of promoting violence so I should not force feed my thoughts onto you ? But what's the point then about the hierarchy of consciousness level ? Besides what is hierarchy if not a form of violence applied by those at the top on those at the bottom ? Hierarchy is justified when the violence applied helps those at the bottom to grow up, that's why parents are justified as superiors of children. That's why bosses in a company are justified to be bosses as long as they help the company grow and with it wages, as long as they empower employees.)

Besides the oak tree sucks the water from the pine next to it tree, which is very violent if you are a pine tree in times of drought. It also takes light from the weed on the ground. WHich is also violent.
IT's called the struggle for life.

Annelene

Again, what Wilber describes are not "imposed hierarchies" but the natural "include and transcend" holarchies reality is made of: letter < word < sentence < paragraph or atom < molecule < cell < organism or matter < life < mind < soul < spirit or self-centric < ethno-centric < world-centric.

DF

What's your vision of evolution ?
What do you call "natural" ?
Do you think things evolve just like this, naturally, as water flows to the sea ?
Or do you think there is an intent, and think evolve only when they relate to that intent ? That would mean things evolve when they do, and regress when they do not.
Do you think you can sit back and watch the evolution process work by its own ? for instance I could sit back and watch my evolution towards greater stages. The child has no effort to make to grow, he does not need to desire to grow.

So now look at the holarchy
organism < specy < Biosphere
No organism can be turned into a specy or a biosphere. That's for sure.
Some other things can happen though. For instances, some sick organisms, can for a short time (long enough for their own short lives) thrive out of the probable destruction of their specy and their biosphere.
That's some humans with increasing life span, reducing the life span of the human specy (think nuclear weapons) and the one of the biosphere.

This is bad.

Now if you are another human, and if you know that there are holarchies, that specy is higher than organism, and biosphere higher than specy, then you know that what these humans do is bad.

What do you do ?

Well you fight these people. Without fear, hate or envy. But with violence. You realise that as a holon you are a part of bigger holons and you need to defend those. Just as a healthy cell in your body reacts and fights a cancerous cell.

It may be possible that the healthy cell is starting to be ill too, it has many cancerigenous products in its own cell, so it has to clean itself first to be efficient in the fight. But it can not only fight on the inner front.

Holons have four drives. One is wholeness. As wholeness they need to fight for their own survival. One is partness, as a part they need to fight for the survival of the whole.
What's more one of the biggest fight is for transcendance. It s not easy to break into another level of consciousness, to transform forelegs into wings. You need to work on it. You need to create.
And all creation, transformation with intent of a creator applied on a matter transformed, all creation is violence.
If you deny violence, you deny creation, you refuse change and evolution.
The only non violent beings are non living beings. Those who want to erase violence are erasing life in itself.

Annelene

Again, try to see how evolution and creation happen without violence - but rather as an expression of unbounded love and desire - and let's continue this dialogue offline! :-)

Thanks,

Annelene

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AnEshva

Five years is a long time to await vindication, but for what its worth I am with you DF

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